Oral History Memoir
Interviewed in person by Jennifer Rudolph
August 15, 2012
Massasoit Community College – Brockton, MA
JENNIFER RUDOLPH: This is Jennifer Rudolph, Coordinator of Public Services and Instruction at MCC Library. Today is Wednesday, August 15, 2012. I am interviewing for the first time, Professor Kenneth Anania in the library of Massasoit’s Brockton campus at 1 Massasoit Boulevard. This interview is being conducted by the Massasoit Community College Library and is part of the forty-fifth anniversary oral history project. Welcome to the library back room.
KENN ANANIA: Thank you, Jennifer. Wonderful to be here with you.
RUDOLPH: Well, today we’re going to talk a little bit about your time here at Massasoit but also a little about before you came. So I was interested in having other people know a little about you and where you grew up, where you went to school?
ANANIA: Well, I am a Brockton boy, born and bred in the city of Brockton. I attended public schools in Brockton—the Ellis Brett Elementary School, which is now a condo, so it was the only wooden school in Brockton. I went to the West Junior High School in Brockton, Massachusetts; now it’s the West Middle School—they don’t call them junior highs anymore. And I went to the Brockton High School, graduated from Brockton High—not the one that is currently in use but is known as the old Brockton High, only half of which is now standing on the corner of West Elm Street and Warren Avenue in Brockton; it’s now an elementary school, I believe. So, I lived in Brockton all my life. From there I attended Massasoit Community College, and the rest you probably know about or will hear about some today.
RUDOLPH: Yes, we will. Besides your time here at Massasoit, when you left, when you graduated from Massasoit, in what year was that?
ANANIA: I graduated from Massasoit in 1968—
[talking at the same time]
RUDOLPH: And that was—
ANANIA: The first graduating class of Massasoit—
RUDOLPH: The first graduating class. And then you went where? Where did you go?
ANANIA: From there I transferred to Stonehill College in North Easton, and I spent two years there and got my bachelor’s degree. I was an English major with a minor in education, so I did some student teaching in Stoughton High School while I was a senior, I believe. And then from there, I graduated in 1970 from Stonehill College, and from there went on and worked on my master’s degree.
RUDOLPH: And where did you go to get your master’s?
ANANIA: I did that in Fairleigh Dickinson University in Teaneck, New Jersey. And I went there for one calendar year, but I did two semesters and a summer and then a full year and then another summer, so it was a shortened program. [*clarification from speaker: I attended school for two semesters in the summer, and then a full year. There should not be a reference to a second summer.]
RUDOLPH: I’d like you to tell us now why after growing up in Brockton, going to school in Brockton, coming here to Massasoit in Brockton, going all the way to Stonehill in Easton, did you travel to—
ANANIA:—as far away as New Jersey? Well, because for that very reason. Because I was always in Brockton; I had always gone to school in this area. And when you’re young, you want to go somewhere different, and I wanted to go somewhere other than this area but apparently wasn’t too far. This school was recommended by one of my professors at Stonehill. The program that I entered is the one that he suggested that I look into. So they accepted me, and that’s why I went there.
RUDOLPH: So how did this prepare you for a career at Massasoit? And what I mean by that is that you said you had taken education courses and you had done your practice teaching in a high school, right?
ANANIA: I did, but when I went to New Jersey, I also worked. I got my master of arts in teaching, and part of that program was for me to work and teach, and I also spent a year working at Englewood Cliffs College in Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey. It was part of the program that I was in. I did work in the daytime, and then I attended school in evening—afternoons and evenings—it was sort of like an internship practicum kind of thing. So I did have an opportunity to teach on a college level—it was Junior College; it was private, but it was a two-year Catholic college run by the Sisters of Saint Joseph of Newark, and I taught English composition for a year. In addition, I took courses in education—more specific to higher education—while I was in graduate school.
RUDOLPH: So, did you decide to come back to Massasoit from there? How did you actually get to come back here to Massasoit?
ANANIA: I think I always wanted to come back. Like most of our students at Massasoit, they come here and find out how wonderful it is—as did I—and wanted to come back here. Even though I was gone for just a couple of years while I went to other places, it was a family place. My sister also came here; my brother came here with me, as a matter of fact that first year. So I had a connection to Massasoit. I also had a connection to a couple of faculty members while I was gone, and I kept in contact with them. And so when I graduated, my goal was to come back and teach in the community college. And I thought this would be a good place to start since I was familiar with it. I didn’t know I was going to stay here as long as I stayed.
RUDOLPH: [laughs] So, you have been here in total how many years?
ANANIA: Counting my two years as a student or in just my—
RUDOLPH: Let’s say as a professor. How long have you been here?
ANANIA: I just completed my forty-first year on the faculty, and so if you want to add another two, you can do the math.
RUDOLPH: Yes, I can. So you have always taught English here?
ANANIA: I have always taught English, that’s correct.
RUDOLPH: And what was it like at Massasoit? I’d like to know what it was like when you were a student but also what it was like when you first came here as a professor. How was it different from what it is today?
ANANIA: Those are three questions. [laughs]
RUDOLPH: Yes, it is. Those are three questions—a three-part—one question, three parts.
ANANIA: What it was like when I first came here as a student? It was another world. We were very tiny; we were in an elementary school in Abington. The [Charles M.] Frolio School in Abington was our campus. It was an abandoned elementary school. We were all new because there were no other people who had been to Massasoit before. We were the first class—the first faculty. The faculty was all new; the students were all new. There was no one to show us what to do or how to do it, so it was just something that we had to develop ourselves, so there was a camaraderie that became evident among the classmates. I think, even among those faculty—those first faculty that came here, those original faculty members, only one of whom I believe is still on the faculty now—they were so small and so close knit, and because we were all on this adventure together—on this new place, this new college that didn’t even exist—it was very special, you know? We walked in during the summer; we were admitted by a dean whose name was Colonel Melody, Colonel Philip Melody. The Sprague School in Brockton was the first office of Massasoit. We all went to this big, abandoned Brockton school house—there were offices that were in there and Massasoit’s first office was in the Sprague School. Every student went in there to be interviewed and walked out with a schedule: You’ll take English; you’ll take math; you’ll take history; and I think they got to pick a language—five courses. Everyone was pretty much done in two years. Pretty much everyone transferred. It was very different.
RUDOLPH: Very different.
ANANIA: Very different.
RUDOLPH: The first students—when you came—were most of them students that you knew from high school because they were from Brockton or had it expanded out? Was it kind of urban or was it suburban, was it both?
ANANIA: The area was not as large as it is right now, but some of my best friends came from Braintree and Weymouth. Certainly there were people from Brockton as well, but we were a community college, even then, drawing from the surrounding communities. We weren’t very large that first year; I think we were probably two hundred kids maybe, somewhere around there. The faculty were probably twenty-five or thirty. T.P. [Elliot Smith] would tell you exactly how many and more accurately than I.
RUDOLPH: Do you think as students, you felt kind of special that this was something really new, the community college concept was new?
ANANIA: It was very new. We felt a little put out because we took classes, as I said, in an elementary school. We didn’t really have a campus. They showed us blueprints of what the campus looked like, and we all saw what the campus would someday look like. Of course we never saw that—that was just the first campus. We didn’t have labs, even. We used to go to the Abington High School for our science classes after three-thirty in the afternoon, after Abington had been dismissed for the day; then Massasoit could use their science labs. So, that’s where we all took our biology classes and our physics classes, and anything that needed a lab, we had to go to the Abington High School.
RUDOLPH: You were not working as some of our students today are doing?
ANANIA: We all worked—
RUDOLPH: You all worked?
ANANIA: We all worked. All the time that I was in school, I worked at Stop ‘n Shop in Brockton. We arranged our schedules around school. We probably didn’t work as much as today’s students work, but we all worked. All of the people who came here were commuters. We all had gas to put in our cars, and we had to pay for them, and pretty much we all had jobs—even then.
RUDOLPH: And when you first came back as a professor, had this campus started yet?
ANANIA: No, ma’am. After the Massasoit campus was in Abington, Massasoit opened up two campuses: The Duxbury campus at Miramar, which was the Liberal Arts campus, and the West Bridgewater campus at the Howard School—at that time it was the old Howard School for Girls—was the business college. All the business courses were offered in West Bridgewater. So we were a two-campus school back in, I think it was in 1970--sixty-nine or seventy is when that happened. And then from there, we opened up the campus here in Brockton; I believe it was in 1973. I was a commuter. I taught in the morning at West Bridgewater, and then I taught two courses later on in the day in Duxbury, so I had to commute back and forth.
RUDOLPH: It seems even further than Brockton and Canton.
ANANIA: It was a little further than Brockton and Canton, yes.
RUDOLPH: Some more differences between the students then and the students now—do you have any other examples of how they might have been different?
ANANIA: We were far less diverse in those days. We are now certainly a more diverse campus. We have far more students who come from different cultures, with different backgrounds. When I was a student my first year, we were very white; we were very Catholic; we were very Irish because the original founders of the campus had all been retired faculty from BC [Boston College]. And so there was a big Irish contingent in those days; it lasted a long time. And now, we have lots of students who come from Haiti, who come from Asian countries, who come from all over the world. We didn’t have students from all over the world when I was a student here. The students now—we already talked about work—they work an awful lot more than we worked when I was in school. I did not work forty hours a week. Often my students work forty hours a week and come to school. They seem to have more complicated lives than when I was younger. I can’t remember having to face the kind of adversity that a number of our students face in their lives. And unfortunately, I hear a lot about some of those things in class or in essays. So their lives seem to be more complicated, and they seem to struggle a lot more.
RUDOLPH: Are they older than they were in—-
ANANIA: And they are much older than they were when I was a student. I’m not saying that everyone was eighteen years old. My brother, who was four years my senior, came to school with me at Massasoit. He graduated ahead of me and then went into the service for four years. And when he came out of the service, it was the year I graduated, so he and I both attended Massasoit together. So we had older students even then and we had veterans even then. But I think by and large now, our students are older than they were in those days.
[0:18:00.8] [break in recording]
RUDOLPH: I would like to know if you have any particular colleagues that you would like to talk us about from back at that time but also some that might have influenced you to continue on at Massasoit and be the person you have become.
ANANIA: The first person that I met on campus was Professor Elliot Smith—T.P. Elliot Smith. He would never tell anyone what the T.P. means. We know the T is for Theodore. It’s the P that’s still a puzzle—no pun intended. He was my English comp [composition] teacher, and he was the person that persuaded me to change my studies from a history major to an English major. And so he was influential in that respect and currently is still my colleague in the English Department and so a long-standing T.P. Elliot Smith. Dr. Marilyn Maxwell probably had the most influence on my desire to be a teacher. She was a teacher that I first met taking English literature. She was a remarkable woman, the founder of the Latch program, which worked with the developmental education. And she also got me interested in developmental education, so she probably, by in large, was the most influential person that I have met while I was here at Massasoit. There are lots of other colleagues who bear mentioning. My involvement with theater people like John Chase, the late, great John Chase, who was instrumental in the theater program here as well as the design of the current theater that we have on campus. Lots of other people. Sam Burchill, our artist in residence, who affected so many people’s lives with his devotion to art. Michael Pevzner in theater, Al Valetta in theater. There are too many to name, although I’ve just named a few. [both laugh]
RUDOLPH: Thank you. What par—
ANANIA: I have to go back and name Laura Yellen. I don’t know how I could stop and not talk about Laura Yellen for just a second. Probably one of my closest friends on campus who had the most influence on as many students as I’ve ever seen, and so she probably has taught me more about teaching and more about students than anybody else, and so I can’t talk too much about her so—
RUDOLPH: Well, thank you. What part do you feel Massasoit plays in the community here?
ANANIA: I don’t think it plays a large enough part in the community. I think we fall a little bit short—I know we have a lot of partnerships with lots of community agencies, and we do lots of work, but I think we at one time used to be a center where people could come and look forward to coming—and I don’t mean just to come and take classes—I mean there was a time when we had more things to offer the community and the ways—
ANANIA: Culturally. It was a place for art. It was a place for performance art. We still have the gallery in Canton where we do that kind of display. But I’m not sure how much the community of Brockton knows that we are here. We’re a large part of this community, but I don’t think a lot of people know about us. And one of our past presidents, George Ayers, made it a point to have Massasoit in the newspaper. Every week he wanted to see something about Massasoit in the paper just to let people know that we were here, and I think that was a very good thing because we were more of an open campus. We’re still open, but we were more visible than we were then. It’s still a wonderful place. Students love to come here. I talked about some of our minority students who come here—bring their families here—want to show them where they go to school. It’s a place where they can take the bus and come here and they love it here, so we’re involved that way, and we provide a place for them. But for the community at large, I’m sure we do things I’m not aware of.
RUDOLPH: Well, maybe that’s something we have to think about. What do you see as some of the college’s biggest accomplishments?
ANANIA: Aside from education?
ANANIA: I think that we have done remarkable things with Allied Health. This campus has grown in lots of ways and becoming a part of the community in one way is looking at the needs, and I think that when we serve the needs of the community in that way. And I think Allied Health just shows that our nursing program is among the finest. We have people who come here to be respiratory therapists—they take my breath away. [both laugh] So, we do wonderful things in that respect with Allied Health. I think we’ve done wonderful things with developmental education, I think—the Latch program. One of the first models of developmental education started, again here, in 1973 has been a model for other programs throughout the state, so we’ve done really wonderful things with lots of our academic programs. Our graduates—I think our students are the things that we do best. We have graduates who are successful and who love to come back here and so that’s important.
RUDOLPH: Thank you. Do you see anything as a disappointment in your time here—college disappointments?
[break in recording]
ANANIA: I guess I’m just disappointed that the role that finances plays—and it’s such a large part that we have to keep—we lose money from the state all the time—the budget that we have used to be driven by what the state gives us. Now they give us little—I think maybe one third of what our budget is—maybe even less than that. And so, I’m disappointed that we have to keep increasing fees and charging students more money because the state gives us less money. I guess I’m disappointed with how we often may be turning students away by charging too much money.
RUDOLPH: What are the most difficult problems that you faced at the college and what were their outcomes—as a faculty member?
ANANIA: I think one of the most difficult problems we faced were the political ones. Often times because we are a state institution, we often have to deal with politics, and politics and education often are like oil and water—they don’t really mix very well. And often times, we have been in conflict with politics to the extent [that] at one point where the board of trustees actually took control of the college and removed—they had every right to remove the president because he certainly is their employee, but it was the process that was followed, so that was a difficult thing to have to go through. And the resolution was that it was my involvement in unions, and that’s what really got me involved in unions, and the result was that we had a meeting with the governor and the trustees—who were taking more power than they deserved—were removed. So it was a successful resolution.
RUDOLPH: I’m going to ask you some questions that are more geared toward you being here.
RUDOLPH: Some of this we have already talked about, but maybe just getting into it a little bit more. I asked you some questions about what it was like when you came as a student in the first class; but, I wonder if we could get a little bit more pointed. The campus was split up, so I know that must have been difficult for students. It was a very small class, you said. There weren’t many students in the first—
ANANIA: When I came as a student?
ANANIA: We were only one campus then.
RUDOLPH: You were one campus, I’m sorry.
ANANIA: We were only one campus at the Frolio School in Abington.
RUDOLPH: Was there any social life for students at that time?
ANANIA: Well, there were clubs—so as a social [life]? Probably no, not really. There was no social life by the college. We did have a director of student activities at that time. He was actually a math teacher, and he doubled as the director of student activities, so we did have student events. But a social life? We made our own social life. You know, being eighteen years old and having new friends and being able to have cars—our social life in those days was in our cars.
RUDOLPH: You talked a little bit about academics. So what about sports? There’s a lot to do with sports here at Massasoit now. Were there—
ANANIA: Back in those days? Yes, there were. We had a basketball team, and I think we had a baseball team, but then again we were very small and very new. We did have an athletic director. His name was Bruce Langland; he was a recent marine. I remember him mostly with a bull horn [JR laughs] even then. I was not active in sports. I was a little more round and heavier in those days [laughs], so I was not an athlete. But if you check the yearbook, you will find a picture of some sporting activities. I don’t think you’ll find me there, [JR laughs] but you will see them. We did have some teams.
RUDOLPH: Now, you had yearbooks at that time?
ANANIA: We did.
RUDOLPH: We haven’t had yearbooks in years, and do you know why yearbooks were discontinued perhaps?
ANANIA: I don’t know why they were discontinued. I think they have just fallen out of grace. It cost money to publish a yearbook, and it cost money to buy the yearbook. It’s just one of those things. Maybe if we could do it digitally and put it on their phones and make it an app, it might work. [both laugh]
RUDOLPH: That might create interest. What was it like to be part of the first graduating class? And how many graduated, do you think?
ANANIA: I used to know this. I used to know how many students were enrolled. I used to know how many students graduated. I’m now suffering from CRAFT disease.
RUDOLPH: [laughs] Which is?
ANANIA: Can’t remember a freaking thing. [JR laughs] I think we probably graduated, I would say, 180-ish. It was great to graduate just as it is any graduation. What made it extra special for us was knowing that we were the first graduating class. It was a little tenuous as a transfer student because the colleges to which we transferred were not as welcoming in those days because we were so new. I think when I went to Stonehill College, they accepted me and two other students, and we were sort of on a trial basis. A number of students did transfer to the state colleges. Bridgewater State, Boston State was still open in those days, and so we did have a lot of students. The state colleges got—as they always do—got more transfer students. But even then, we were all sort of on trial because we were new and graduation was new to us.
RUDOLPH: Was that concerning for you at the time or being young, you just went and—
ANANIA: I was not a bit concerned, no. I was young and naïve.
RUDOLPH: As we all were then. After you completed your bachelor’s at Stonehill and your master’s at Farleigh Dickinson, you came back to Massasoit as a faculty member. Tell us what it was it like to return to your roots—to be on the other side of the lectern, as it were?
ANANIA: It was really quite weird. These people who made so much of an impression on my life—people like Marilyn Maxwell and like T.P. Elliot Smith—were now people that were my colleagues, and so it was a little strange to be on the other side of the lectern, as you say. And I wasn’t really that much older than students in those days—not that I’m much older now. I was still a young kid—I think I was just twenty-three when I came back to school to teach. And so I felt more connected to the students than I did to my colleagues, at least for the first several years, anyway. I was welcomed by my colleagues here; it was still small enough that I knew all of the people, by in large. In another coincidence was the new dean of faculty had come from Stonehill College, where he was my education teacher, so I knew him when I came back as well. So, it was welcoming; it was comfortable to be here; I had only planned to stay a few years. [coughs] Excuse me. But as you see, I stayed.
RUDOLPH: Yes, you did. So, why did you only plan to stay for a few years and what kept you here?
ANANIA: Well, I think I wanted to see more of the world. I wanted to teach at a big college, and I wanted to just be at a university somewhere, and what kept me were students. I started to learn more about the community college, and just because I went to one didn’t make me an expert about it, but the more that I got involved with students, the more that I see that these were students who were not university students who were already turned on to education. They were not students who read books for pleasure—that they were not students who would ordinarily be accepted to college through a strong application process—that these were students that were more of a challenge to teach, and it was more rewarding to make an impression on students and to turn them onto education. And so, that’s what I started to learn about community colleges and about our students, and that’s why I stayed.
RUDOLPH: We’re glad.
ANANIA: Me too.
RUDOLPH: You touched on it a little bit of it earlier—you have been active in Massasoit’s theater history. Tell us a little bit about the theater. You mentioned who started the theater here at Massasoit?
ANANIA: John Chase, Professor John Chase—the late, great John Chase was the first person in theater, I believe. There was some other young dynamic faculty—people named Al Voletta and Michael Pevzner. And because they were still young and involved, theater was really very, very much a part of their lives, and it was very active here on campus. We actually taught more varied courses than we currently do. [phone rings in background] Things like play production, where students actually had to produce plays and design sets, and so there were lots of students who were involved in theater, and I was interested in performing, so I got involved with theater while I was here.
RUDOLPH: What were some of the parts you played in the projects?
ANANIA: I played several small parts. I played several fathers. I played in Our Town—I was the father in Our Town. I could probably list a gazillion plays that I’ve worked on if I had more time to think about what those plays were. I think what I really had the most fun doing in theater, if I can jump to that, was when we—I think it was the twenty-fifth anniversary of Massasoit—when we did faculty productions, and I was involved in doing Gilbert and Sullivan operettas with faculty and staff. So although I did a lot of work with theater with students and really enjoyed that. It was really a lot of fun to work with my colleagues in the three Gilbert and Sullivan productions that we did.
RUDOLPH: Tell us what those were.
ANANIA: The first one was The Mikado; the second was The Pirates of Penzance, and the third was HMS Pinafore. They were three wonderful productions starring the faculty and staff. They’ve not been repeated since then.
RUDOLPH: Probably couldn’t be matched. [KA short laugh] How did it change from being students and faculty and become the faculty-and-staff-only productions come about, do you know?
ANANIA: Well, they came about only because it was part of the twenty-fifth anniversary of Massasoit—I think it was a gala in those days. And so we wanted to do something that we give people who worked here an opportunity to be a part of theater. They’ve always had an opportunity to audition for the productions that the theater company had performed, and we did often have faculty and staff that took part in those student productions, but the emphasis was on students—student productions. We wanted to feature students and to star students. And that was one of the goals of the drama theater—the Drama Department in those days—was to make sure that students—to use a Bob Rose phrase—were the centerpiece of the table. We wanted to make sure we featured them. But that faculty production—although we invited some students to be a part of it, it was a way to showcase faculty and staff.
RUDOLPH: And that must have been a lot of fun.
ANANIA: It was a lot of fun, yes.
RUDOLPH: Besides being on stage, you also, I noticed from some of the programs that we have in our archives, did a lot of backstage work.
ANANIA: I did mostly backstage work, yes. I was on stage several times, a handful, maybe—maybe a dozen, I don’t know after all these years. But yes, I learned a lot about lighting, and I worked lights for quite a while, running the light board, running spotlights. Several years, I did makeup because I took some makeup courses. I did make up for several years. A couple of years I did sound or props or costumes. I felt a lot better behind the scenes than I did on stage because I thought I was on stage in class every day, that I didn’t need to be on stage as well in theater. So I really enjoyed working in the production of those shows, and I really liked watching students discover themselves and to discover their love for theater, which we still do, but not in the same way that we did then.
RUDOLPH: I’d also like to ask you a little about your connection to the M-triple-C [MCCC] Union here at Massasoit. You mentioned that briefly earlier, too. I’d like to know how the union came to Massasoit—a little bit about the history of the union here?
ANANIA: Actually the unions in community colleges in Massachusetts began here at Massasoit. The faculty who were responsible for it—the late Harold Gay, Tim Fitzgerald—I think they began unionizing in 1968. When I returned as a faculty member in seventy-one, they had already unionized. They had not formed a union while I was a student here so, during the time that I was gone, during my time at Stonehill and at Farleigh Dickinson, unions became a part of the community colleges, and they had their beginnings here, and I would assume they began like any other union on working conditions and class sizes and things like that. But when I returned here as a faculty member, I was invited to join the Massasoit Faculty Association, which I did in 1971.
RUDOLPH: You have been very active the union. You’ve held offices in the union—
ANANIA: I have.
RUDOLPH: And over the years, several times repeated.
RUDOLPH: Correct? How do you feel about the involvement of others in the union?
ANANIA: Well I think, like some of our students, most of our membership is apathetic—I think that somewhat is changing. We have a new leadership in our local association, and I think, just like national politics, the youth often times energizes. I think change often energizes people, so I’m hopeful that with new leadership will come new energy, and we have lots of new faculty who are entering the ranks as well. Unfortunately, they don’t have much history about unions and the benefit the unions provide, and it will be up to us to educate them and show them the importance of unions, and I think that we can’t go anyplace but up.
RUDOLPH: In this time period, lots of people feel that unions are not needed as much as they were years ago. How do you feel about—
ANANIA: How unfortunate that they would think that when I have just the opposite view, and I think that now more than ever, unions are important, especially working for a government. I mean governments are not often known as the most benevolent people. [laughs] And so working for government, I think you certainly need to have things like collective bargaining. But I think the political climate just shows that there is a lack of attention being paid to– or a lack of—what do I want to say?
ANANIA: Perhaps the lack of interest, I guess. But more and more people are going to find that their rights are being in some way taken away, and the last the thing they’ll have to do is they’ll have to go back and fight for unions to get them back.
RUDOLPH: Okay, thank you very much. Is there anything you’d like to add to anything we’ve discussed at all—any anecdotes or any questions you might have that I neglected to ask that might be meaningful?
ANANIA: Hmmm. This will be a long pause here. [laughs] I can’t think of anything.
RUDOLPH: You can’t think of anything? I would like to thank you on behalf of Massasoit’s oral history project for participating in this interview.
ANANIA: My pleasure.
RUDOLPH: And just thank you very much.
ANANIA: And thank you for having me.
RUDOLPH: You’re welcome.
[End of interview]